The Outsiders - The Truth

[queen]

Before you call me crazy, let me explain.
So, on Facebook, Darell Rooney, the director of the sequel made some "confirmations" on Facebook. Flip Kobler also made a statement. I am going to debunk all of them. And please read this the whole way through because this is important.

1. Kovu is NOT an orphan. Darrell Rooney described Kovu as an orphan on Facebook. However, the film clearly describes Kovu as Zira's son. The only thing made clear of his direct lineage is that Scar is NOT his father, but Scar adopted him as his heir. There are no implications where he is not Zira's son. He clearly describes Zira as "mother" and nothing else. I.e. Zira is his mother. Zira also isn't very likely to adopt. And Scar would not chose a cub unrelated to one of his followers. It was enough that he wasn't his son. Shouldn't he need to share blood of someone loyal to him? And in case you don't believe me, here:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0pGuSYQa5I

Rooney describes Kovu as the son of Zira and the protege of Scar. (4:07) Why he described Kovu as an orphan? Well maybe it was something in production which was changed to him being Zira's son.


2. Nuka is not Scar's son. Now Flip Kobler stated this on Facebook in 2016. However, a friend of mine went on Facebook. His name is Kyle Blake. Kyle asked Darrell if Nuka was Scar's son. Rooney stated that Nuka was originally Scar's son, but like Kovu, he was scrapped as the son. Kyle then asked Kobler. Kobler replied that all he knew was that Kovu and Scar's relation was scrapped and he didn't know whetger or not Nuka and Vitani remained Scar's kids. But Rooney's statement was true. And it's there in the film. When Nuka b****es about Kovu being the chosen one, he says " Scar wasn't even his father". He referred Scar by his nickname, and not "Dad" or "Father". And when he states why he should be the chosen one, he says. "I'm the oldest, I'm the snartest, I'm the strongest." He never says "I'm Scar's son." nor does he state that he and Kovu share no relation. And when Zira mourns Scar, she says, "Scar, watch over MY poor Nuka." If Nuka was her son with Scar, then she would have said "OUR Nuka" since she was talking to Scar.

3. Zira is Scar's wife. NOW HEAR ME OUT.... I can explain. So I still hold those 2 arguments above. And I have some proof. In a deleted scene, Zira says, "Scar would still be King. And I, Zira. His loving devoted Queen." You would naturally say, This is a deleted scene it's not canon" and I am alright with you sayuthis. But in the scene, Zira says, "Scar took you in and accepted you as his own son." Kovu says, "But he wasn't my father." This scene acknowledges that Scar isn't Kovu's father, which is in the real movie. And here's another factor. Zira is pissed at Simba for killing Scar. It would make a lot more sense if it was her mate that died at the hands of Simba. In her eyes, Simba is the bad guy. In Simba's eyes, Zira being Scar's wife is enough. In Zira's eyes, Simba banishes her just for being in love with someone, a feeling he has had before. Now you would argue: " The director stated that Zira and Scar are not mates:" He did not state that. He said the relationship was obscured to make it APPEAR as if she was just a follower. What appears may not be true. Still don't believe? Kyle Blake went onto Facebook. Both Darrell Rooney AND Cindy Marcus (the head writer) stated that Zira was Scar's wife. It makes sense.
But remember my argument above. This makes Kovu, Nuka, and Vitani, Scar,'s stepchildren. So Kovu's father is not Scar.
Here is how that affects the sequel. The sequel focuses on Simba's mentality which was a result of the first movie, including his hatred of Scat, and his trauma. Zira would be a huge part of that. Since she would be Scar's wife, Simba woild still have a reminder of the man that ruined his life through his wife, and his emotional trauma and pain hadn't made him grow up completely. So he would banish any lions related to/resembling Scar, including his wife and stepchildren. Her being a follower does this as well. Her supporting Scar and justifying him wouldn't please Simba. He knew Scar was never truly gone, and this was through Scar's religious support. So Zira is a loyal follower AND wife of Scar. It makes the most sense and brings more meaning to Simbas character in the sequel.

[Kieran]

This is a very, very well written post even if some of it does lean on evidence that cannot be verified as facts.

I've heard of these Facebook statements often, they're being used to back up arguments. I've also seen them and I don't consider them factual/valid because the person who contacted this Rooney simply asked if they are the director and trusted when the person said yes. That would be ill-adviced anywhere but especially on Facebook which is notorious for fake celebrity/public figure pages. The fan who asked should have taken a screenshot of the url of Rooney and Marcus's Facebook pages in question, so that they could be compared to the url addresses of their officially announced FB pages. If they even have announced such.

Like I did with my contacting Alex Simmons about Kopa a long time ago. I made sure to contact him through the e-mail address that he has publicly on his official website. Thus the e-mail address in my screenshot of his reply can be verified as the real deal and anyone who still doubts for some reason can contact him themselves and ask him to confirm the screenshot e-mail is authentic. Sadly, I don't think those Facebook posts can be verified at this point.

Nonetheless, I agree with most of your post. Kovu being an orphan has never even crossed my mind, for the simple fact that he calls Zira mother whilst nothing implies adoption. Nuka being Scar's son also had never crossed my mind before I read others questioning it. Because I always felt that a detail that significant would have been clearly stated in the film if it was the case.

Zira being Scar's wife, I always knew was the case in an earlier script because Kovu was originally intended as Scar's son and they even drew concept art where he looks just like Scar. But since the depth of Zira's relationship with Scar was obscured in the film, I conclude that in that final product she was just a follower. Or at least meant to be so that a viewer can vision either way and still make perfect sense. Yes, I think it's likely the creators' intent still remained that she was Scar's wife. But that they simply thought it is not crucial for anything and that the movie would be better if her relation to Scar was left up to the viewer. Personally, I prefer to imagine she was nothing more than a womsn in love and fantasizing about being his queen, perhaps almost seeing it realized but it was then that Simba returned and destroyed her dreams by overthrowing him and letting him be killed. That is, I feel that having something you desired from the bottom of your heart taken away from you forever, just before you would have gained it, especially when it included someone you adored, might drive you more mad than if you had it for a while first.

Also, I think her not being Scar's mate makes more sense, in the movie. Because if Scar had a mate/wife, why would he name an unrelated cub as his heir instead of making cubs of his own blood. Especially as he thought himself so wonderful. So in the end, I think there's a small chance that for the final product, the movie we have, they changed her relationship from mate to just a follower at the same time when they changed Kovu to not be his son.

[queen]

Jun 17, 2019 3:49:25 GMT 2 Kieran said:

This is a very, very well written post even if some of it does lean on evidence that cannot be verified as facts.

I've heard of these Facebook statements often, they're being used to back up arguments. I've also seen them and I don't consider them factual/valid because the person who contacted this Rooney simply asked if they are the director and trusted when the person said yes. That would be ill-adviced anywhere but especially on Facebook which is notorious for fake celebrity/public figure pages. The fan who asked should have taken a screenshot of the url of Rooney and Marcus's Facebook pages in question, so that they could be compared to the url addresses of their officially announced FB pages. If they even have announced such.

Like I did with my contacting Alex Simmons about Kopa a long time ago. I made sure to contact him through the e-mail address that he has publicly on his official website. Thus the e-mail address in my screenshot of his reply can be verified as the real deal and anyone who still doubts for some reason can contact him themselves and ask him to confirm the screenshot e-mail is authentic. Sadly, I don't think those Facebook posts can be verified at this point.

Nonetheless, I agree with most of your post. Kovu being an orphan has never even crossed my mind, for the simple fact that he calls Zira mother whilst nothing implies adoption. Nuka being Scar's son also had never crossed my mind before I read others questioning it. Because I always felt that a detail that significant would have been clearly stated in the film if it was the case.

Zira being Scar's wife, I always knew was the case in an earlier script because Kovu was originally intended as Scar's son and they even drew concept art where he looks just like Scar. But since the depth of Zira's relationship with Scar was obscured in the film, I conclude that in that final product she was just a follower. Or at least meant to be so that a viewer can vision either way and still make perfect sense. Yes, I think it's likely the creators' intent still remained that she was Scar's wife. But that they simply thought it is not crucial for anything and that the movie would be better if her relation to Scar was left up to the viewer. Personally, I prefer to imagine she was nothing more than a womsn in love and fantasizing about being his queen, perhaps almost seeing it realized but it was then that Simba returned and destroyed her dreams by overthrowing him and letting him be killed. That is, I feel that having something you desired from the bottom of your heart taken away from you forever, just before you would have gained it, especially when it included someone you adored, might drive you more mad than if you had it for a while first.

Also, I think her not being Scar's mate makes more sense, in the movie. Because if Scar had a mate/wife, why would he name an unrelated cub as his heir instead of making cubs of his own blood. Especially as he thought himself so wonderful. So in the end, I think there's a small chance that for the final product, the movie we have, they changed her relationship from mate to just a follower at the same time when they changed Kovu to not be his son.

I applaud you. Your argument is pretty damn good. I am now very conflicted. I have access to FB and Blake gave a link to a comversation to Roomy. It is unrelated to the statement but maybe it can show us whether or not the real Rooney is the one talking to him. m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156300140728122&id=773953121

You can use this to either support or debunk. I'd rather be proven wrong than be confused.

Anyway, I originally had your argument. But in the original film, Scar never wished to have children as he was on the shallow end of the gene pool, so naturally he would not want to risk the future of his country with lean lions who are sharing his end due to being biologically related to him.
He would likely pick someone else's cub to be his successor, one outsise his family tree. Zira was his wife and follower, (unless thus is debunked) so he would likely pick her children, since they would be his stepcubs, so they would still be related to him, and thus they would be his children, but at the same time not sharing his blood nor genes so he would be a healthy cub. And let's say Scar DID want to have cubs. In the original script, Scar tried to seduce Nala into becoming his Queen and having his cubs. Nala runs off. But NALA was the one whom he wanted to procreate with. Zira could've been a pawn. Zira was a pawn to Scar just for power, while Nala was more than that, but something he felt would establish his reign as King.
In production matters, Rooney said that her direct lineage was obscured to make her just a follower. I.e. her lineage was made unclear to make her just a follower, which can be translated to it was obscured to APPEAR that way. And Zira and Scar both identified each other as predators with selt interest and murderous intent. Surely that would be a reason for Scar to marry Zira. In real life, lionesses will have more than one mate. We both agree that Zira mothered her cubs with an undisclosed maye, as stated by the filmmaker. So maybe Scar could've still been her husband. Especially since a male lion will hook up with all the females. Zira could've been the dominant female, explaining her loyalty to Scar. But with your argument I am conflicted now and am more leaning towards your side.

[Kieran]

Well, the movie doesn't really say he didn't want his own cubs because of his genes. Just that he considers himself too weak to take on Mufasa who was absolutely massive. He might have still felt he could hold his own against most average lions. And as the earlier script with the Nala matter and Kovu originally being his bio son would indicate both creator teams thought he would want to make his own cubs. For what I heard the reason they changed Kovu to be his adopted son was because they realized otherwise he'd be Kiara's cousin. And of course that is a no-go when there would be romance and marriage between them.

Since him trying to seduce Nala didn't make it into the first film there was room for the sequel's creators to have him make cubs with someone else which they originally did. And even if the Nala scene was in the first film, it doesn't shut out the possibility of Scar finding another lioness he deems worthy of mothering his cubs. I don't recall anything implying that he was in love with Nala or anything.

So, I still stand by my view that if Zira was his wife he would have made cubs with her instead of choosing her pre-existing cub. That yes, technically she could have been but in the story context I don't think she was after they changed Kovu from bio to adopted. That it wasn't obscured but downright changed.

There's really no way to determine which FB page is real if Rooney doesn't have an official website where he links to his social media pages.

[queen]

I can't argue wity THAT. I am slowly starting to believe you. But if anything, Zira at least had to be im love with Scar because not only would she lose her chances of becoming Queen but Simba would have ruined her wedding.
Maybe Zira was Scar's fiance but he died before they married.