Post by squash on Dec 31, 2012 13:08:09 GMT 2
// I moved this post away from The Lion King F.A.Q thread, because that's only for collection of the frequently asked questions and the answers to them. Any discussion about it best had on this feedback board.
- Kieran //
So I disagree with some things here and I think I should point them out. Since this is a Lion King F.A.Q, it should get the facts right, so that fans looking for answers won’t be confused
I'm a rather new fan myself, so I just went through it all (This isn’t meant as a criticism at all, just offering my opinion)
(Sorry if I seem to be nitpicking!)
Who is the cub at the end of The Lion King film?
It's Kiara. The sequel film's production uses that very cub in the official trailer as baby Kiara, and in an interview one of the animators literally said the cub is a queen, not a king. If you wish to ignore the sequel film, then the cub is no-one officially. Because the film itself leaves it nameless and genderless and then on the 1995 Laserdisc commentary track its creators call it Fluffy and still don't give it a gender, not even after the sequel film. So, the cub is Fluffy/Kiara.
The cub at the end is not Kiara in the Lion King's original canon. It is a male cub, Simba's son meant to take his place in the circle of life, without any further identity. Kiara didn't exist at all even as a concept at the time, that's why they surnamed him "Fluffy".
Kiara, and the whole of SP, is fanfiction (i.e. she wasn't made by the same people that created the Lion King universe).
Now in SP's canon, or sub-universe, the cub at the end of TLK doesn't exist. The producers chose to disregard his existence to make their own cub (they turned him into Kiara, if you prefer, changing completely his design).
In TLK's canon, yes, he has at least one son, the cub at the end. In SP's universe however, that son has been turned into Kiara (and if Simba had any male cub after the events in SP, we don't hear about it).
I'm not entirely sure about what exactly it is that you are calling "the official movie universe", since there are several official movie universes? (the one we see in the first movie being the only one that is "canon").
About the part I underlined, I think you meant that he didn't know there would be a cub in the sequel movie (I'm just pointing this out since the sentence confused me for a good five seconds at first!
Also, I agree that Kopa never was the cub at the end of the first film in canon, since he simply isn't canon (though he is a perfectly canon-compatible possibility for any fanfiction-universe out there). However, the trailer of the second film has nothing to do with that fact, since SP and TLK6NA are separate universes.
The last line, about whatever fans like to think, has nothing to do, I think, in a LK FAQ. Some fans think Kiara or Zira are canon too, it’s because they use a different (false) definition of “canon”.
Well, he was never denied by the film makers. He just wasn’t their creation and so not a part of their universe.
I think it would be clearer to say it that way:
The original creator never gave us their version of how Scar got his scar, so there is no canonical answer to that question. They left it up to the fans imagination.
The only Disney-related source offering us a vision of how it might have happened is TLK6NA, where Scar was harmed by a Bull’s horn (If I remember correctly?).
Again I would say:
Scar’s real name is never revealed in canon. However his name is Taka in TLK6NA, a Disney book.
Idem for Mufasa and Scar’s parents. It’s just less confusing.
I don’t agree with your reasoning here. First we don’t really know how much we can use real lions’ facts, such as mane length, to determine the characters age with precision. It could have been drawn that way for artistic reason, like Scar’s (their manes aren’t that realistic after all), and in that case it wouldn’t necessarily be accurate with how a real lion’s mane is supposed to look at whatever age Simba is. Second, you’re using information that has been deleted from the movie. In the final cut, it seems that no significant amount of time passes between the “Simba is grown up” scene and the destroyed Pridelands scene (and the next time we see Simba, star-gazing with Timon and Pumbaa). Actually the “2 years later” bit makes no sense situated after the log scene, since the log scene itself is supposed to show the passage of time, it’s its whole purpose. It would be more logical if it was meant to be the amount of time Simba spent in exile, the time passing in the log scene. If this is the case (i.e. Simba spent two-years in exile), it would make him approximately 3 years old by the time he reclaimed the throne, a sub-adult.
That last bit is consistent with the script, where he is referred to as an adolescent several times: “During the final chorus, the trio dances and plays through various landscapes. In each one we see Simba has grown -- until he is a mane-toting adolescent.”
“At the close of the song, we find Timon, Pumbaa and adolescent Simba lying on their backs under the night sky, looking up at the stars. It´s like a campfire scene with campfire buddies.”
“As the Lioness leaps, Simba (now an adolescent) jumps into frame and knocks her down. Timon takes a peek and sees the lions face off.”
Those are taken from the working script for the movie, as used by Disney (you can find it on the Internet Movie Script Database in PDF format). It is dated August 20, 1993 and written by Irene Mecchi & Jonathan Roberts. It is slightly different from the final on-screen version (some dialogues were a bit modified – lines added/deleted), but most major decisions are included.
Personally, I think of him as four years old (five maxi). He would have his mane but can still be called young (I imagine him as being about twenty in human years in the movie rather than a teen).
I would add that we can safely deduce from how the characters interact in the movie that neither one is her father.
If I can make a few suggestions:
You mention TLK6NA a lot in your FAQ, so I think you should explain what it is first, before talking about Kopa.
And actually a little rundown of all the Disney-related material we have on the Lion King universe would be helpful, I think
EDIT: I forgot to explain about the cub at the end of TLK being male.
Well, you can see he was designed to be male because of how closely he looks like cub Simba and the many characteristics he doesn't share with all the other females in the Pride (the bright fur color, the dark space around the eyes, the fur on his head and cheeks). But the most important is that his paler belly fur isn't connected to the chin fur. You can see it when he is first opening his eyes in Rafiki's arms, before being held up (I'll show you a screenshot if you want). In TLK, females have their belly fur connected to the chin/muzzle but males don't because of their mane. So Fluffy is male.
- Kieran //
So I disagree with some things here and I think I should point them out. Since this is a Lion King F.A.Q, it should get the facts right, so that fans looking for answers won’t be confused
I'm a rather new fan myself, so I just went through it all (This isn’t meant as a criticism at all, just offering my opinion)(Sorry if I seem to be nitpicking!)
It's Kiara. The sequel film's production uses that very cub in the official trailer as baby Kiara, and in an interview one of the animators literally said the cub is a queen, not a king. If you wish to ignore the sequel film, then the cub is no-one officially. Because the film itself leaves it nameless and genderless and then on the 1995 Laserdisc commentary track its creators call it Fluffy and still don't give it a gender, not even after the sequel film. So, the cub is Fluffy/Kiara.
The cub at the end is not Kiara in the Lion King's original canon. It is a male cub, Simba's son meant to take his place in the circle of life, without any further identity. Kiara didn't exist at all even as a concept at the time, that's why they surnamed him "Fluffy".
Kiara, and the whole of SP, is fanfiction (i.e. she wasn't made by the same people that created the Lion King universe).
Now in SP's canon, or sub-universe, the cub at the end of TLK doesn't exist. The producers chose to disregard his existence to make their own cub (they turned him into Kiara, if you prefer, changing completely his design).
Does Simba have a son?
Only in the books and not in the movies. Hence, the answer to the question above which points out that the cub at the end of the first film and Kiara from the sequel literally blend into one in official movie universe footage while the cub has never been called a boy in the movie universe. Thus, in the movies Simba's first and only child is the daughter Kiara. But in the book universe his first and only child is a son or a daughter, as both of those genders have been used in different books.
Only in the books and not in the movies. Hence, the answer to the question above which points out that the cub at the end of the first film and Kiara from the sequel literally blend into one in official movie universe footage while the cub has never been called a boy in the movie universe. Thus, in the movies Simba's first and only child is the daughter Kiara. But in the book universe his first and only child is a son or a daughter, as both of those genders have been used in different books.
In TLK's canon, yes, he has at least one son, the cub at the end. In SP's universe however, that son has been turned into Kiara (and if Simba had any male cub after the events in SP, we don't hear about it).
I'm not entirely sure about what exactly it is that you are calling "the official movie universe", since there are several official movie universes? (the one we see in the first movie being the only one that is "canon").
Who is Kopa?
He is an official lion character from the book universe of The Lion King, but Disney did not create him. Kopa is an original character made up by an outsider childrens' book author, Alex Simmons who did not even know there would be a cub in the movie. Kopa appears in the set of books The Six New Adventures as Simba and Nala's son. He was never the cub at the end of the first film, as evident by the commentary track of the first film / the trailer of the second film / the interview of Disney's animator. As in Kopa was not approved by the original film makers, which is why he's not really even semi-canon, but just official fanfiction. Some fans still like to think of him as semi-canon or even canon.
He is an official lion character from the book universe of The Lion King, but Disney did not create him. Kopa is an original character made up by an outsider childrens' book author, Alex Simmons who did not even know there would be a cub in the movie. Kopa appears in the set of books The Six New Adventures as Simba and Nala's son. He was never the cub at the end of the first film, as evident by the commentary track of the first film / the trailer of the second film / the interview of Disney's animator. As in Kopa was not approved by the original film makers, which is why he's not really even semi-canon, but just official fanfiction. Some fans still like to think of him as semi-canon or even canon.
About the part I underlined, I think you meant that he didn't know there would be a cub in the sequel movie (I'm just pointing this out since the sentence confused me for a good five seconds at first!
Also, I agree that Kopa never was the cub at the end of the first film in canon, since he simply isn't canon (though he is a perfectly canon-compatible possibility for any fanfiction-universe out there). However, the trailer of the second film has nothing to do with that fact, since SP and TLK6NA are separate universes.
The last line, about whatever fans like to think, has nothing to do, I think, in a LK FAQ. Some fans think Kiara or Zira are canon too, it’s because they use a different (false) definition of “canon”.
What happened to Kopa? Did he die?
Kopa did not die because he exists only in the few books in the book universe of The Lion King, and in them nothing fatal happens to him. What happened to him seeing to the movies is that he got completely ignored and denied by all film makers.
Kopa did not die because he exists only in the few books in the book universe of The Lion King, and in them nothing fatal happens to him. What happened to him seeing to the movies is that he got completely ignored and denied by all film makers.
Well, he was never denied by the film makers. He just wasn’t their creation and so not a part of their universe.
How did Scar get his scar?
Disney nor its film makers have never revealed their own official vision of that. There is a vision in a book, but it's an original story from an outsider and on the commentary track the film makers have denied any books from applying to their film. So there is no official canon story for this matter.
Disney nor its film makers have never revealed their own official vision of that. There is a vision in a book, but it's an original story from an outsider and on the commentary track the film makers have denied any books from applying to their film. So there is no official canon story for this matter.
I think it would be clearer to say it that way:
The original creator never gave us their version of how Scar got his scar, so there is no canonical answer to that question. They left it up to the fans imagination.
The only Disney-related source offering us a vision of how it might have happened is TLK6NA, where Scar was harmed by a Bull’s horn (If I remember correctly?).
What was Scar's real name before he got his scar?
Disney nor its film makers have never revealed their own official vision of that. There is a vision in a book, but it was written by an outsider and on the commentary track the film makers have denied any books from applying to their film. So there is no official canon name for him other than "Scar".
Disney nor its film makers have never revealed their own official vision of that. There is a vision in a book, but it was written by an outsider and on the commentary track the film makers have denied any books from applying to their film. So there is no official canon name for him other than "Scar".
Again I would say:
Scar’s real name is never revealed in canon. However his name is Taka in TLK6NA, a Disney book.
Idem for Mufasa and Scar’s parents. It’s just less confusing.
How long was Simba in exile?
As the film makers studied lions, and in the film and on the Laserdisc release bonus material they distinguish appearence between a cub, adolescent and adult--we can safely say they had the characters age basically according to real life. Thus, cub Simba couldn't have been much older than 7 months old when he was exiled, and in the first adult Simba scene he has a fully grown mane, which makes him at least five years old going on six. This results in approximately four years in exile--but on the commentary track the film makers say that after the first adult Simba scene, at the destroyed Pridelands scene, they intented to have subtitles "Kenya, 2 years later". This adds two years to Simba's exile.
Simba's exile lasted approximately 6 years, making him approximately 7 years old when he reclaimed the throne.
As the film makers studied lions, and in the film and on the Laserdisc release bonus material they distinguish appearence between a cub, adolescent and adult--we can safely say they had the characters age basically according to real life. Thus, cub Simba couldn't have been much older than 7 months old when he was exiled, and in the first adult Simba scene he has a fully grown mane, which makes him at least five years old going on six. This results in approximately four years in exile--but on the commentary track the film makers say that after the first adult Simba scene, at the destroyed Pridelands scene, they intented to have subtitles "Kenya, 2 years later". This adds two years to Simba's exile.
Simba's exile lasted approximately 6 years, making him approximately 7 years old when he reclaimed the throne.
I don’t agree with your reasoning here. First we don’t really know how much we can use real lions’ facts, such as mane length, to determine the characters age with precision. It could have been drawn that way for artistic reason, like Scar’s (their manes aren’t that realistic after all), and in that case it wouldn’t necessarily be accurate with how a real lion’s mane is supposed to look at whatever age Simba is. Second, you’re using information that has been deleted from the movie. In the final cut, it seems that no significant amount of time passes between the “Simba is grown up” scene and the destroyed Pridelands scene (and the next time we see Simba, star-gazing with Timon and Pumbaa). Actually the “2 years later” bit makes no sense situated after the log scene, since the log scene itself is supposed to show the passage of time, it’s its whole purpose. It would be more logical if it was meant to be the amount of time Simba spent in exile, the time passing in the log scene. If this is the case (i.e. Simba spent two-years in exile), it would make him approximately 3 years old by the time he reclaimed the throne, a sub-adult.
That last bit is consistent with the script, where he is referred to as an adolescent several times: “During the final chorus, the trio dances and plays through various landscapes. In each one we see Simba has grown -- until he is a mane-toting adolescent.”
“At the close of the song, we find Timon, Pumbaa and adolescent Simba lying on their backs under the night sky, looking up at the stars. It´s like a campfire scene with campfire buddies.”
“As the Lioness leaps, Simba (now an adolescent) jumps into frame and knocks her down. Timon takes a peek and sees the lions face off.”
Those are taken from the working script for the movie, as used by Disney (you can find it on the Internet Movie Script Database in PDF format). It is dated August 20, 1993 and written by Irene Mecchi & Jonathan Roberts. It is slightly different from the final on-screen version (some dialogues were a bit modified – lines added/deleted), but most major decisions are included.
Personally, I think of him as four years old (five maxi). He would have his mane but can still be called young (I imagine him as being about twenty in human years in the movie rather than a teen).
Who is Nala's father?
At the 2004 Reunion the directors of the film said that Nala's father wasn't originally determined but that the general assumption always was that it was either Scar or Mufasa - but note "general assumption" which does not equeal a fact. Assumption means to think something is a possibility. Also, when you read a detailed description of the situation and the way they gave the answer, you'll see they were joking -->The Lion King WWW Archive. And finally, as they were specifically asked who the father IS and they chose not to directly answer it but gave a could-be answer in a joking manner, it is most obvious they don't care to decide her father's identity to any extent.
At the 2004 Reunion the directors of the film said that Nala's father wasn't originally determined but that the general assumption always was that it was either Scar or Mufasa - but note "general assumption" which does not equeal a fact. Assumption means to think something is a possibility. Also, when you read a detailed description of the situation and the way they gave the answer, you'll see they were joking -->The Lion King WWW Archive. And finally, as they were specifically asked who the father IS and they chose not to directly answer it but gave a could-be answer in a joking manner, it is most obvious they don't care to decide her father's identity to any extent.
I would add that we can safely deduce from how the characters interact in the movie that neither one is her father.
If I can make a few suggestions:
You mention TLK6NA a lot in your FAQ, so I think you should explain what it is first, before talking about Kopa.
And actually a little rundown of all the Disney-related material we have on the Lion King universe would be helpful, I think
EDIT: I forgot to explain about the cub at the end of TLK being male.
Well, you can see he was designed to be male because of how closely he looks like cub Simba and the many characteristics he doesn't share with all the other females in the Pride (the bright fur color, the dark space around the eyes, the fur on his head and cheeks). But the most important is that his paler belly fur isn't connected to the chin fur. You can see it when he is first opening his eyes in Rafiki's arms, before being held up (I'll show you a screenshot if you want). In TLK, females have their belly fur connected to the chin/muzzle but males don't because of their mane. So Fluffy is male.
